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Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby greatgt » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:39 am

Thanks Mike...Been thinking of the e109's for a number of years....Bout ten years back or so headed down with Telesven to Flagg pond from Wheelock Mountain....Bout 1200 verts and a great ski in the day of Old Growth...but...it had been logged a couple of years earlier....Whip world but those skinnies could go right through the whips with little deflection...Loved those 190's....Figure after years of getting older it's time to ski them again only this time new....TM
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:21 pm

Maybe I'm getting old and the kids are wearing me down, but I don't think it will matter all that much. These skis seem pretty similar to me and when I think they aren't, it's usually the conditions. I've had good skis on the Fischers and good skis on my Asnes, and bad skis on both. It also seems the more I ski one or the other, the more used to it I get and the better they ski. When I haven't skied them in a while I sometimes have some expectations of how they skied before that I can't always replicate.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby greatgt » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:12 am

"Conditions"...Always the ticket for something....Since my preference is more in line with skinny light stuff I have a number of skis for different conditions....Thinking at least three sets need some epoxy....So today will take the 109's out...That could be a mismatch for "Conditions!)....If hardpack they are squirrely because they are to short....Oh well...TM
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby North816 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:50 am

might be worth calling Neptune Mountaineering to ask if the remaining asnes skis are on sale, they are having a winter clearance sale. I see a pair of "Cecile" in 190cm - LoveJohnny's skis, or a shorter pair of Ingstad. These are both like E109.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:47 pm

Yeah, I would definitely suggest checking out Neptune to see what they have.

A Cecile or Nansen is more like an E99 with more sidecut and less camber, but either would be OK if you are OK with a 56 waist. The Ingstad has a 62 waist and the E109 a 60, so they are more in the same range. I'd actually say my Ingstad is on the softer side of flex with a moderate camber. The camber seems to be one of the best parts of that ski IMO. It has just enough to make it really work well for gliding and not so much as to really make it hard to turn in deeper snow. Not sure how much of that carried over to the newer version, but it's a nice BC wax ski. I don't think the tiny slits in it are much detriment to it's strength, it seems pretty stout to me, although technically from a stress standpoint, it's no different than the Fischer setup. It might just be its inconspicuous nature lulling into a false sense of security.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby greatgt » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:35 am

Ze problem is I have skied the 109's for a while but haven't a clue with the Asnes....I get some inclination from reports but a comparison between the two....62 Asnes and the new 109's....waxable....I don't get the idea that many have skied them both for comparison....Also are the Asnes much heavier than the 109's?....This is going to be the go to ski for cruising the forest with as many arcs and turns as an oldie can get....Steep or mellow all will be had...TM
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:10 am

I don't think anyone that posts on these forums has both... well except Lilcliffy, he has the NATO and the E109. The NATO is apparently a similar ski and he says he prefers it to the E109. The reasons he does may not be the same reasons another might or might not.

E109: 82/60/70, 2.05 kg/200cm

Ingstad BC: 84/62/74, 2.05 kg/195cm

Both have pretty significant Nordic rocker, weights are about the same, sidecut is about the same and both have a skin attachment system. E109 claims to be DC, but very weak DC. Ingstad is camber+, but tending toward DC. They might be closer than you think.

The Asnes uses full wrap and thicker edges, which is a bump for durability.

Really, I think they are gonna ski a lot closer than you might think. I would get whatever one is easier to get your hands on. Call Neptune...
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby greatgt » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:48 am

Thanks Mike....Will check out Neptune....Do like full wrap as our collective tips are always chewed up...We tend to switch the bindings so both sides get chewed more or less equally....Makes for a narrow tip if the ski doesn't break...TM
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby North816 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:07 pm

I've never skied E109's but I have skied E99's and Sbound 78s. These skis and Asnes are very close. Except the Asnes are still using the durable construction that Fischer had up until the last 5 years when the E99's and 109 got light & flimsy. Asnes will give you mostly the same flex with thicker edges and more robust build. And still lighter than your old E109's which are much heavier than today's E109. The Ingstad and NATO combat, and Ceciles, are perfect for cruising the wooded hills of VT.

also the skin-holes in Asnes are narrow slots aligned with the length of the ski, not the larger horizontal hole that Fischer is using. Fischer couldn't use the Asnes system exactly because of the trademarks. Get the original! :lol:
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Well to be fair, Fischer did patent the idea before Asnes did. Whether or not it was conceived earlier is a moot point. Asnes being first to market would of course be an infringement to Fischer's patent if the courts deemed the claims to be conflicting.

I honestly think Fischers system looks better from a performance standpoint. They have nothing under the ski but skin, which is not the case with the Asnes. They require a larger hole to accomplish this, but as I said, from an engineering standpoint they both have the same weakness. The small radii at the top and on the base in the notch(es) are the highest stress points and the most likely to fail. The cross-section of the Fischer is compromised, which could affect the overall flex of the ski, but unlikely enough to really make a noticeable difference in what these skis can handle anyway.

Both have made concessions to keep weight (and cost) down. Fischer chose to put air in the core and thin the edges but didn't really compromise on the layup, which is where Asnes had to, to be weight competitive. You then wind up with a softer ski overall, which to some is good.

Both have done an incredible job with this class of ski in maintaining flat performance (striding and gliding) and turning ability. Both my Ingstad and S78 are very similar in average speed on flats and in turning ability. The Nordic rocker gives a nod to my S78 for turning but now that the Ingstad has it in spades, I'd guess that has swung the other way.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby greatgt » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:42 am

Thanks for the info guys.....Went to Neptune but didn't see much on their web site....My 109's are pretty beat...but they are a good ski...Beginning to think the new 109 is a very different ski than the older version...The Ingstad seems to be closer to the oldie...Also am thinking wax...The 109 comes in a wax version in Europe, not here...Does the Ingstad have a wax version?...Thanks TM
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:38 am

You gotta call them Bruce, that website isn't up to date. (888) 499-8866 10-7 MST

Ingstad is wax only.

Also if Neptune doesn't have what you want now, they can have it for you in the fall. Just tell them what you want and they'll hold it for you - at least the old owners would.

Apparently if you get a pair of 50mm Mohair skins for them you can forgo using "bones" altogether i.e. they should replace your need for a waxless ski or so has been claimed.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby North816 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:36 am

greatgt wrote:.Does the Ingstad have a wax version?...Thanks TM


Asnes does NOT make waxless skis. You will not find any fishscales in their lineup.
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