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#1 Lead Changes

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#1 Lead Changes

Postby voile3pc » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:20 pm

Great !
Question: what are the technical advantages
of delayed lead changes vs early ? In other words,
why should we all aspire to delayed lead changes
in contrast to early ? What specifically are the
rewards -other than, perhaps, tighter quicker turns .. :? :? :?
Last edited by flyingcow on Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added a thread title for clarity
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Williamtele » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:09 pm

My 2 cents - Late lead changes:

Require aggressive turn initiation movements getting weight forward and across skis,
can result in edge change higher in the turn,
will give you better turn shape,
allow earlier and more pressure on the new inside ski.


....but you don't have to do them if you don't want to.

If you want a good drill, try monomarks which are consecutive tele turns with no lead change. Also, try slowing down the lead change. That produces more even balance and pressure through the turn.

For 2 cents, you probably overpaid.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby voile3pc » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:17 pm

Thanks..I do both, but have never really been able to
see any big advantage either way, 'cept an early change seem to have
something of a parallel (open hip, more turning power) advantage and the later change
gets you in the fall line earlier..
Another natural question is "why do tele racers tend to favour
the earlier lead changes " ?
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Rene-Martin Trudel » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:41 am

Hello Voie3pc,

Wow, great question.

First, there's no right way that's always right.

Then for the most efficient in most cases, the moment of the lead change is determine by your SPEED.

LEAD CHANGE
Is the moment where you transfer weight from one leg to the other. this will get the forward leg to LEAD the turn.
Once committed, you need to gain speed in order to maintain momentum. Momentum... it's like a sacred word in the science of sports, kinesiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology. Momentum is maintained when you keep moving. Riding a bike in movement is easy because of momentum. If you're going slow you can turn the handle bar a lot. if you go fast, you need to barely turn the handle bar and lean. All that to say that it varies. In telemark, that translates to a balance between stance, vertical or horizontal extansion, and lead change.
Prior to changing direction, you obviously were finishing your last turn, the goal of any turn is to slow down (or control speed). the goal of the lead change is to keep balance and balanced is influenced by your speed, radius of the desired turn and terrain.

EARLY LEAD CHANGE:
Used at high speed. When mastered, it does not require aggressiveness. The point where you change direction at high speed will enable you to let the skis go under you and LEAD the next turn. This works both short and long turns, but it's a lot easier on long radius turns...

So are you going fast and carving turns like a racer:
Let your skis go under you and away from your mass center (horizontal extension) + lot's of hips angulation = early lead change. You will arch your turns a lot and have a constant (+/-) speed. Works on short turn as well but the angulation is in the knees and ankles.

LATE LEAD CHANGE
WHO is racing?

So that early lead change in high speed turns is great.
What I see most often is people going average speeds and trying to have that early lead change. PROBLEM is that you will miss momentum, be unbalanced in your turn transition and have an uneven arch turn (harder to control speed).
That's why, at normal speeds, I will adopt a late lead change, have a slooooooowwww transition and a long period in between turns where I am gaining speed in the fall line. I will have a vertical extension. This is considered in intermediate technique but in reality, it's the bread and butter of your telemark turn tool kit. It works great in all situation, all conditions, and save energy the most. (unless your going fast!)

So to recap, lead change depends on speed, not on turn radius, not on terrain.
An early lead change is used to maintain a constant speed while turning and needs a lot of speed (carving, in bumps or anywhere for the matter.)
A late lead change is used at medium or slow speed, it is used in all terrain, in all condition. It will make you gain speed in the fall line and lose speed in the turn phase. It's a beginner to expert technique that is efficient except at high speeds. It's a lot easier to master that an early lead change and for me, it's the MOST important, most used technique on a general, long ski day.

Don't be fooled by this long explanation, there is no right way that's always right. Just go out and tele turn, that's all that really matters.


RM
PS: I'm not used to explain technical point in written English, my appologies if my english is not perfect. Feel free to ask questions
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Williamtele » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:52 am

Hi Ron,

I think your analysis is right on. The hips are a great focus for this question. I've never been good at describing this so I'll probably stumble here...with an early lead change your hips will naturally rotate into the turn and your outside hip ends up leading. That does two things: unless you're very countered at the waist, you'll come through the turn facing uphill (more an issue with beginners). Secondly, it is very difficult from that position to create effective angulation. My understanding is that you really want that inside hip leading through the turn. You can get on the new edge sooner and hopefully get higher edge angles on both skis. Different speed and terrain will dictate the style that you want to use.

Racers have their own style which often is contrary to what we learn as instructors. It's very front foot dominant and they have to "camp" in their turn position much longer due to the forces that their speed creates. They also have to show separation between their feet so they don't get penalized. I think that's why they change leads very quickly and quite high in the turn.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Rene-Martin Trudel » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:58 am

Hello Will,

Great comment. I will complement as I understand it, don't hesitated to rectify if I misunderstand you. Also I will try to give specific examples of different lead changes.

To come back to the original question by Voile3pc, the emphasis should be put in late lead change. Once the telemark skier has mastered that technique and is really pumped to try something new, he/she should can take a lesson to really get the notion of the early lead change, horizontal extension.

That being said, I will try to give different examples of lead change

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71xPokg-yLM

I found this vid. This guy is pretty good, I'm sure we'll all agree. He is showing both the early lead change and horizontal extension and the late lead change, vertical extension.
See @ 0:12s for long radius turns. early lead change, lots of speed, horizontal extension
Look carefully at the section between 3:21 and 3:28. Those are pretty good early lead change turns that are long radius at first and then short radius (last 2-3 turns).
He makes late lead change in powder at 4:04. Short turns, lots of vertical pop and slow speed.

This guy is obviously a really good tele dude. But still look at the section from 3:05 to 3:15s, he comes charging in a mogul/chopped snow section. He is unbalanced most the way down (I will be the first to admit that it's a fun way to go down the hill). He's unbalanced because he tries to have a vertical extension (thus having an early lead change) at the end of his turns. This cause him to jump around and lose a lot of efficiency.

Will was talking about hip rotation and hip leading the turn, the hip rotation/counter rotation point. In my mind, this is an independent topic than lead change.
I would not talk about hip rotation or counter rotation as it's a heavy and hard to move body part (although you are right about it). I like to talk and give people exercise about small body part like hands, arms, shoulders, knees and feet. So technically, yes. Theachingly (Invented word, I know :roll: ) I will have people experiment without talking about hip rotation/counter rotation.
Look at the race course between 5:09 and 5:37. He sure is carving (early lead change and horizontal extension), using lots of hips angulation but no hip rotation at the start of the turn.

For the exercise: hands and arms should be the focus has they can move fast and have great impact on your balance.
See the exercise that he does at 1:30. He elevates his outside arm as he makes the early lead change. this ensure that he resets his upper body for a good, constant hip angulation. If you can stop the action at 1:40, you really see he is fully extended, leg and upper body leaning . He doesn't hold this position more than a split second as he would just fall inside. But this upper arm movement reset the angulation, as he turns, he can again move his hips in the turn.

Finaly I agee that racing is different but not in a manner that makes everything different, the same body dynamics happens.

hope this helps
Hoping for snow :D

Rene-Martin
http://absolutetelemark.com
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right" Henry Ford
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Rene-Martin Trudel » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:07 pm

This other vid give a great example of late lead change, medium speed, short or long radius turns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfDUss7HAn8

This is Denis Vezina, one of the best technician we have here in Quebec. He is skiing an intermediate run. I like this video because he seems to ski effortlessly.
@0:16 to 0:26s look how slow the lead cahnges are. lots of passive time in the fall line, where he just let things go
@0:42 nice short turns. Again late lead change...

Cheers

RM
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Grant » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 pm

If this is the level of input we can expect in this forum...I'm psyched! Thank you Rene and Bill.

It's a little wordy, but clearly thought out and extensive.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Biff » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:36 am

Grant wrote:If this is the level of input we can expect in this forum...I'm psyched! Thank you Rene and Bill.

It's a little wordy, but clearly thought out and extensive.


+1! Rene, the vids are great. An added plus... I get to review my french.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby JohnC » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:13 pm

Great videos. His short turns are especially nice to watch.
Match the rhythm (lead change) to the size of the turn.
Lead change is feet constantly moving from start to finish of turn.
When the lead change is done, so is the turn, then shuffle feet through the next turn.
Easier said than done sometimes, ha.

This video shows a good example as well... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jd0MwPZmjU

Quick lead changes into static tele stance, early or late feels abrupt, not as balanced or smooth.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby croy12291 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:58 pm

JohnC wrote:
This video shows a good example as well... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jd0MwPZmjU

Quick lead changes into static tele stance, early or late feels abrupt, not as balanced or smooth.


Great vid JohnC, I have been watching that once a day for the past week getting psyched for the season!

another really good video with some slow motion shots is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X48noPkBYT4

I think if we all just start skiing like this guy we won't need any instruction.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Rodbelan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:10 am

Here is some more contribution to the thread...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV-dCswj ... dvN3M2Om6g
From 4:20, there is an interesting drill that relates to many topics including lead change (and rear ski weighting—all things are related). Japanease have a way with Telemark that is a bit different than what we see in Canada and US. Same thing with Telehiro vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIBdyK1vJ-E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC3MV4xN78w
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby teledawg » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:52 pm

Question: what are the technical advantages
of delayed lead changes vs early ? In other words,
why should we all aspire to delayed lead changes
in contrast to early ? What specifically are the
rewards -other than, perhaps, tighter quicker turns .


This question lies at the heart of a lot of lessons I teach. So here are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Let me begin by throwing out the notion of a “delayed” lead change—in the contemporary turn it’s not delayed at all—it happens at the most appropriate time for the smooth, progressive movement of body parts to continue throughout the turn. Ideally, the lead change is timed to occur throughout the arc of the turn. The stride IS the turn. Fast shuffle for short turns, slower shuffle for long turns. Your feet pass midway through the turn, not always at the very top of the turn.

With an early lead change, in contrast, the skier rapidly strides, THEN turns. For me, an early lead change is usually an indicator of inefficiencies in a skier’s turn entry.

That is, early lead changes are often the result of a tele skier having learned to initiate new turns by driving the uphill ski quickly forward, and guiding and pressuring it into the outside of the new turn. While this technique unquestionably works, it almost always results in the skier having to make (at least) two movements in sequence—the front ski is driven into the turn, and the rear ski is then guided into a matching position. Almost inevitably, there is a wedge that is created as the outside ski is stemmed into the turn (movement 1) followed by the inside ski being aligned into a parallel position (movement 2). It shows up every time on video, even on very advanced skiers. And almost inevitably, the early lead changing skier winds up assuming a static telemark “pose” through the bottom of the turn, in which their legs basically stop moving because all the lead changing happened in an instant at the top of the turn.

Such turns usually also exhibit uneven pressure distribution through the turn, as the skier often goes “up” and applies light pressure at the top of the turn, and flexes “down” and applies heavy pressure at the bottom. The early lead change is a technique which is frequently less smooth and fluid and less quick turn to turn. So again, for me as an instructor assessing a skier’s technique, an early lead change is usually a clear indicator of inefficiencies in turn entry.

I suppose you could simply say that in a “delayed lead change” turn, the lead change happens after edge release, and is timed to occur progressively throughout the turn. That is, the more efficient movement that starts a turn is not a thrusting of the new lead ski forward, but rather, the continuous flow of the body’s center of mass down the hill, forward and across the skis towards the next turn. This movement causes the skis to roll from their edges onto their bases, releasing their “bite” and enabling one to steer them more easily. And once the edges are released, the steering and lead changing can occur smoothly and continuously through the turn. I encourage folks to play with a timing in which their feet pass each other halfway through the turn, when your hips/toes/tips point straight down the fall line. But once you've released the edges, you can play with all kinds of timing for the lead change.

For intermediate and advanced skiers, he technical advantages are evident immediately. The skier feels that the turn happens more easily. They feel, and look, smoother. The skis are more consistently parallel throughout the turn. The skier works less hard to turn. They are more able to easily respond to changes in terrain and surface. Their powder and bump skiing almost immediately improve.

With more accomplished skiers, more dynamic movement down the hill enables a skier to go from edge to edge at the top of the turn, engaging sidecut and biting the new edge into the surface for more carve-y, edge-y turns. The application of pressure is more consistent throughout the whole arc of the turn, without a noticeable light or heavy spot. With these techniques, the skier is more confident on ice and steeps, more versatile everyplace. These are the technical advantages of a “delayed” lead change, if you choose to call it that.

This dynamic, edgy, round medium to short radius type of turn is the one that I work with high end tele skiers on the most. And it’s easy to turn discussion of these points into a high speed carving clinic. . .

So even if the turn you’ve got is working fine, play with the timing of your lead change. Try to make the your feet pass each other midpoint through the turn, when your toes/tips point straight down the fall line. If you can’t do it easily, you've got something to play with this season. Are you failing to release edges at the top of the turn? Or do you simply have a timing issue?

Either way, maybe you should come take a clinic with me!

Cheers

Jim Tasse
Sunday River Perfect Turn, Newry ME
Mt Abram Ski School, Greenwood ME
NET, wherever in New England
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Biff » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:29 am

Well put Jim!!! Knowing this was your teaching center piece I've been waiting for you to jump into this conversation.
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Re: #1 Lead Changes

Postby Brenda » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:28 am

Great explanation--thank you! And yes, anyone who can should take a clinic with teledawg.
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