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Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby oldschool » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:00 pm

So I have a question and then will answer this question.

Question is, for those who like to wipe their skis with Maxxx or other glide goo which I do when skiing no-wax skis, is there a way to make this stuff last longer? If you put it on the bases the night before, blow dry it a bit or something like that. Maybe make several applications to let it permeate the base? I generally will hot wax the area outside the kick pocket with a nice cold base wax as I do for most of my XC skis. I've taken to using more temp appropriate downhill waxes on my tele boards and i think that helps so may try to carry it over to the XC skis.

As to preference, I prefer waxable if possible up to around 33, maybe even 34 degrees. I refuse to use klister for warm temps. Red wax is a mess too but works well when the conditions are right. In more granular transformed snow i certainly go no-wax and no-wax is really convenient. At the same time, in a good winter the temps will often be somewhat consistent to the point that you can just ski the previous wax again or add a slightly warmer one. For me, conditions are often good for Blue-Special - this was a Blue-Green mix that Swix made but I don't think they make any more. On the warmer side of Blue there is Blue Extra so these days I'm often in Blue or Blue Extra. This year was cold enough for me to finally ski the greens and they worked nicely on the day I went out. A well waxed waxable ski has so much more glide relative to no-wax skis and so much more quiet, I'll go for it every time. Again, the exception is above freezing - was out today and it was around 40 or so - perfect conditions for the E99 no waxes to just slide along in all that sunshine...
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby RobRox » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:07 am

lowangle al wrote:.....I've been corking in polar wax on my no wax skis, tip to tail including the scales. After corking the scales I rub them with my palm to spread the wax for full coverage. The glide is as good as F4, it last longer and it's easy to reapply in the field. It's probably not the best option but my glide feels good and there is no drag. It's also quick, I can do two pair of skis in less than 10 minutes..
It's a lot less messy and that is a beautiful thing! I have done that when I was out of klister. Worked quite well.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby Dirk » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:26 am

lowangle al wrote:.....I've been corking in polar wax on my no wax skis, tip to tail including the scales. After corking the scales I rub them with my palm to spread the wax for full coverage. The glide is as good as F4, it last longer and it's easy to reapply in the field. It's probably not the best option but my glide feels good and there is no drag. It's also quick, I can do two pair of skis in less than 10 minutes..


This works just as well with F4 in stick form. Rubbing it over the scales leaves a little wax on the pattern, but not enough to compromise the kick much. Then iron it in, or cork it if you don't have a waxing iron. In practice I have found this to last longer than liquid F4, or paste F4 or Maxi-glide.

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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby lowangle al » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:08 pm

Dirk wrote:
lowangle al wrote:.....I've been corking in polar wax on my no wax skis, tip to tail including the scales. After corking the scales I rub them with my palm to spread the wax for full coverage. The glide is as good as F4, it last longer and it's easy to reapply in the field. It's probably not the best option but my glide feels good and there is no drag. It's also quick, I can do two pair of skis in less than 10 minutes..


This works just as well with F4 in stick form. Rubbing it over the scales leaves a little wax on the pattern, but not enough to compromise the kick much. Then iron it in, or cork it if you don't have a waxing iron. In practice I have found this to last longer than liquid F4, or paste F4 or Maxi-glide.

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Is that made to be a rub on wax or is it just soft enough to do so. I did a quick test with a cold temp specific glide wax and it was too hard to easily rub on. I've been happy with the polar, been using it on my tips and tails for years, even for cc racing. I never was happy with liquid F4 but I'd give that one a try. I know it says "universal" but I think any glide wax soft enough to rub on won't be hard enough for super cold temps. How does it work when temps fall below zero? The liquid F4 and the polar are pretty slow in the cold.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby Dirk » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:16 pm

Al, I don't know what's actually in F4, but it has all the characteristics of a cold glide wax, like CH4. The hard F4 pictured comes with a strip of cork glued to the back of the packaging, so clearly the anticipation is that people will be rubbing it on their bases and corking it in.

As for temps below zero F, everything is going to feel slow. There's so little moisture in the snow at cold temps that there's going to be a lot of friction regardless of the wax. Hard block F4 has worked well for me in all applications, but primarily to prevent icing on a kick pattern at temps around freezing.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:34 pm

You can get the same stuff in a hydrocarbon wax and it's much cheaper. I've talked to some ski racers about the fluorine and it's worth tenths of a second on a race course. For the recreational skier, it's a waste, and sometimes it doesn't work as well.

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I like this junk for a liquid wax:

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The longer you let it sit, the longer it seems to last. I've had zero icing with this.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby lowangle al » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:24 pm

Cheaper's good, do you rub it on or iron?

I've noticed that since I haven't been kick waxing lately I'm a lot more diligent about glide wax. I freshen it up every time out.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:05 pm

I iron, but I usually use CH7. Usually lasts 3 or 4 skis before I start to see some grey on my bases. I'm not sure what the universal is for temp range, but I've used it before and it's about the same as the temp specific to me... that is, I can't tell a difference in glide.
Last edited by MikeK on Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby phoenix » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:00 pm

Flouros come into their own in high moisture, and/or old dirty snow. The hydrocarbons are preferred for drier snow.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:35 am

Perhaps the fluoros really do work when it's really wet and gloppy, but I've had no issue with HC in these conditions, and we get our fair share of warm, wet snow down here. I have other hardness' of CH and FWIW I can't tell a difference in the warm - when it gets cold, definitely. Everything seems super slow.

I actually have had issues of icing with fluoros like Maxiglide paste, etc, but I think that's just because it won't actually stay on the ski. I also am under the impression that putting fluoro wax into our watershed is not such a good idea (I mean, where do you think that snow that melts goes?).
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby North816 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:50 pm

agree on the evil chems, F4 is the only product I use that causes me to feel guilty. I'll probably empty out the container I have now & use MaxiGlide or Polar going forward.

MaxiGlide is a really nice product, one day I did have a problem where it seemed to move from my scales onto the glide wax on the tips & tails and it reacted with the wax to produce a glue-like sludge. So I've been avoiding it. But I don't even like to breathe in the vapors that come out of my liquid F4 roll-on bottle. Maxiglide seems just as fast as F4 to me.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby oldschool » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:43 pm

Thanks for the answers about treatments of no-wax skis -

Here's a related question to keep this thread going a bit. I recently tried Fischer E109s and liked them for their wide quality and float relative to E99s. I have a pair of waxless E99s and a pair of skins that would fit them (210s). I am intrigued by the E109s as they are just a bit more turny and nice relative to E99s and am really thinking about a pair for uphill/downhill at a ski resort or laps someplace similar I can figure out. My question is about the Easy-skin part - the skis are great but I did not try this. I am sure it gives nice traction on something steep and sustained enough in length to warrant busting them out and chugging up a long ascent (like at a downhill resort) but I wonder at what grade they fail at relative to a full length skin that would let you really hike it. Anybody have experience with these kicker skins thingys the kids today are using?
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:12 pm

I don't know about using the 109 on resort snow - it might really friggin' suck. It's light, undamped, has a lot of camber and probably won't hold an edge (none of my Fischer XCD skis will). I have a fair deal of these skis and when things get firm I'm in survival mode. I'm admittedly not the best skier, so I'm sure some people could do it, but for me they feel kind of scary... and I really love XCD, I just don't like light, cambered, bouncy skis on hardpack.

As for the skins... never used the Fischer breed but I have the Asnes counterpart and BD kickers. I can get up maybe 20 degrees in difficult snow. They add maybe 5 degrees from what the scales can do, sometimes a little more if the scales are really not working. They are deathly slow though. Scales are much more efficient if you have the grip and way better for rolling terrain.

I use those skins for like 300' laps and they aren't too much of a pain. I've gone both ways: making a zig zag path and keeping the kickers off and putting on the kickers and the hassle of either is about the same IMO. If you just want to get up something and not have to navigate the forest, they work. Also good back up. You'd probably be able to pick your way up something steeper with them assuming you could find a lower angle route. If you are skiing a single-track CCC type trail, you'd probably want to have full skins as well though. In open woods, I don't find a need for full skins. JMO.
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby greatgt » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:09 am

Haven't used skins in decades and there were a few times when they would have been welcomed...OS my dilemma is the hole in the bottom of the ski and my ability to break any ski I ski....Have some old and beat 178 e109's and often reflect that a 190-195 would be the ticket...Have some longer skinnier for breaking trail....We have hundreds if not thousands of acres of possibilities when on top...The 109's really shine on the down...Wonder if the new ones do as well?.....If there isn't enough snow and the skis don't lock in so to speak the short 109's can and do get squirrelly....Longer surface and edge will stop that me thinks....Am going to order a set soon unless somebody can convince me to get something else....Love e99's and have several sets that are in different stages of disrepair....Will work on them this summer....Winds are howling but me thinks a cruise on those Sondre Telemark skis will do the deed on hardpack with 2-4 inches of powder...TM
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Re: Wax or Scales, what's your flavor?

Postby MikeK » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:09 am

Probably the only thing that would be comparable to the 109 would be the new Ingstad . I have the older version, and it's not a bad ski. It definitely would be a better ski with the addition of some Nordic rocker which the new ones have. It's not a double cambered ski, but whatever was done in the wax pocket area really works.

It has the skin attachment system as well, and apparently the new version is improved. Mine has a metal clasp which is kind of draggy, the same as what is on the BD kickers.

Also you'll only get an Asnes in a wax base. The 109 can be had in both and I'd actually assume oldschool tested the crown version as it's really hard to get the wax version in America.
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